A Debate between

Joe Gallegos(Catholic layman)

&

James White(Director of Alpha/Omega Ministries)

On the Papacy and the ancient Church

This written debate took place on a BBS echo during June of 1995

'In fact, there is good possibility that Peter did not go to Rome at all.'
Answers to CC, pg 103...

"Another aspect of the Roman claims deals with Peter's supposed presence in Rome. According to the Papal claims, Peter was the bishop of Rome until his death. There is plenty of evidence for this from the writings of early fathers, but surprisingly little from the Biblical text itself. If Peter was in Rome, it wasn't for long, that is for certain. He surely did not found the church there, and it was obviously well established and growing before he would have gotten there.

etc.

In fact, there is a good possibility that Peter did not go to Rome at all. Despite all the traditions associated with Rome, Peter indicates that he is writing his first epistle from Babylon. Many have identified this as simply a symbolic way of indicating Rome, but it might not be. Given that Galatians 2:7-8 indicates that Peter felt he was sent primarily to the "circumcision," that is, to the Jews, and the fact that there was a large Jewish population in Babylon itself, Peter may have gone there rather than to Rome, and the testimony of 1 Peter 5:13 could be taken literally."
(_Answers to Catholic Claims_, pp. 103-104)

'In fact, there is a GOOD possibility that Peter did not go to Rome at all.'
ACC pg 103

'...to deny the Roman stay of Peter is an error which today is clear to every scholar who is not blind. The Martyr death of Peter at Rome was once contested by reason of Protestant prejudice.'
A. Harnack

"If this evidence for Peter's martyrdom be not be deemed sufficient, there are few things in the history of the early Church which it will be possible to demonstrate"
G. Salmon "Infallibility of the Church" pg 348-9

"Some Protestant controversialists have asserted that Peter was never in Rome...I think the historical probability is that he was...Protestant champions had undertaken the impossible task of proving the negative, that Peter was never in Rome. They might as well have undertaken to prove out of the Bible that St. Bartholomew never preached in Pekin...For myself, I am willing, in absence of any opposing tradition, to accept the current account that Peter suffered martyrdom at Rome. If Rome, which early laid claim to have witnessed that martyrdom, were not the scene of it, where then did it take place? Any city would be glad to claim such a connexion with the name of the Apostle, and none but Rome made the claim."
G. Salmon "Infallibilty of the Church" pg 348-9

"If this evidence for Peter's martydom be not be deemed sufficient, there are few things in the history of the early Church which it will be possible to demonstrate"
ibid pg 349

'...to deny the Roman stay of Peter is an error which today is clear to every scholar who is not blind. The Martyr death of Peter at Rome was once contested by reason of Protestant prejudice.'
A. Harnack

'It is sufficient to let us include the martyrdom of Peter in Rome in our final historical picture of the early Church, as a matter of fact which is relatively though not absolutely assured. We accept it, however facts of antiquity that are universally accepted as historical. Were we to demand for all facts of ancient history a greater degree of probability, we should have to strike from our history books a large portion of their contents'
Oscar Cullman "Peter, Disciple, Apostle, Martyr" pg 114

'That Peter and Paul were the most eminent of many Christians who suffered martyrdom in Rome under Nero is certain...'
F.F. Bruce "NT History" pg 410

'It seems certain that Peter spent his closing years in Rome' JND Kelly "The Oxford Dict. of Popes" pg 6

'The martyrdom of both Peter and Paul in Rome...has often been questioned by Protestant critics, some of whom have contended that Peter was never in Rome. But the archaeological researches of the Protestant Historian Hans Lietzmann, supplemented by the library study of the Protestant exegete Oscar Cullman, have made it extremely difficult to deny the tradition of Peter's death in Rome under the emperor Nero. The account of Paul's martyrdom in Rome, which is supported by much of the same evidence, has not called forth similar skepticism.'
Jaroslav Pelikan, "The Riddle of Catholicism", pg 36

'...and quite certain that he[Peter] died there[Rome] a martyr's death in the persecution under Nero(about AD 65).'
Bishop Gore, Roman Catholic Claims, pg 93,94

"Why! a faggot that is cut off from the vine retains its shape. But what use is that shape, if it is not living from the root? Come, brother, if you wish to be engrafted in the vine. It is grievous when we see you thus lying cut off. Number the =priests even from the seat of Peter=. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: THAT IS THE ROCK which the proud gates of hades do not conquer. All who rejoice in peace, only judge truly"
Psalmus contra Pertem Donati

'I ought to tell you, however that St. Augustine is not perfectly uniform in his intepretation.'
Salmon, Infallibility of the Church

"Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built His Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? `You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer."

'Peter...on account of the PRIMACY which he bore among the disciples'
Enarratio in Psalmum cviii

'It goes without saying that Augustine identifies the Church with the universal Catholic Church of his day, with its hierarchy and sacraments and with its centre at Rome'
JND Kelly ECD pg 413

'with its centre in ROME'

"At the same time there is no evidence that he was prepared to ascribe to the bishop of Rome, in his capacity as successor of St. Peter, a sovereign and infallible doctrinal magisterium.

etc...

"The truth is that the doctrine of the Roman primacy played only a minor role in his ecclesiology, as also in his personal religious thinking."

a)'Catholic Church of his day...with its CENTRE at Rome'

b)'Optatus...proceeds to explain, that the episcopal commission was first and uniquely conferred upon St. Peter,
pg 418

c) and that the other apostles and their successors participate equally in the selfsame commission. In this way the possibility of there being several 'chairs', with the DISUNITY which would inevitably result, was effectively RULED out.' pg 419

d)'For Optatus...communion with the See of Peter was a vital necessity...AUGUSTINE's attitude was not dissimilar.'

'I ought to tell you, however that St. Augustine is not perfectly uniform in his interpretation.'
Infallibility of the Church, pg 335,336

'Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom, That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail'
Ps C. partes Don 18

'I ought to tell you, however that St. Augustine is not perfectly uniform in his intepretation.'
Salmon, Infallibility of the Church, pg 335,336

'For, if the order of the SUCCESSION of bishops is to be considered, ho much more surely, truly and safely do we number them from Peter, to whom, as representing the whole Church, the Lord said: 'Upon this rock will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it'(Matt 16:18). For, to Peter succeeded Linus, to Linus Clement...to Julius Liberius, to Liberius Damasus, to Damasus Sircius, to Sircius Anastasius'
St. Augustine, Epis 53

'For, if the order of the SUCCESSION of bishops is to be considered, ho much more surely, truly and safely do we number them from Peter, to whom, as representing the whole Church, the Lord said: 'Upon this rock will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it'(Matt 16:18). For, to Peter succeeded Linus, to Linus Clement...to Julius Liberius, to Liberius Damasus, to Damasus Sircius, to Sircius Anastasius'
St. Augustine, Epis 53

'in which the authority of the apostolic office has always stood fast'
Epis 43:7

'In this order of succession[ie the successors of Peter] no Donatist bishop is found. But unexpectedly, they sent from Africa an ordained man, who, presiding over a few Africans in Rome, propagated the title of Mountain Men or Cutzpits.'
Ep 53

'But it is not found in this form, though we may ADMIT that it is an epigrammatic condensation of sentences of Augustin.'
NPNF Series 1 Vol 1, pg 21

"The predicate of infallibility alone he does not plainly bring forward; he assumes a progressive correction of earlier councils by later; and in the Pelagian controversy he asserts the same independence towards pope Zosimus, which Cyprian before him had shown towards pope Stephen in the controversy on heretical baptism, with the advantage of having the right on his side, so that Zosimus found himself compelled to yield to the African church. But after the condemnation of the Pelagian errors by the Roman see (418), he declared that `the case is finished, if only the error were also finished.'"

'But it is not found in this form, though we may ADMIT that it is an epigrammatic condensation of sentences of Augustin.'
NPNF Series 1 Vol 1, pg 21

"Hence the famous word: `Roma locuta est, causa finita est,' which is often quoted as an argument for the modern Vatican dogma of papal infallibility. But it is not foun in this form, though we may admit it is an epigrammatic condensation of sentences of Augustin. The nearest approach to it is in his Sermo CXXXI (citation given)."

'This act, Lord brother, we thought right to intimate to your holy charity, in order that to the statutes of our littleness might be added the authority of the Apostolic See for the preservation of the safety of many, and the correction of the perversity of some.'
Ep 175

'For we do not pour back our little stream for the purpose of replenishing your great fountain but in the great temptation of these times...we wish it to be approved by you whether our stream, though small, flows from the same head of water as your abundant river, and to be consoled by your answer in the common participation of the same grace.'
Ep 177

'In making inquiry with respect to those things that should be treated with all solicitude by bishops, and especially by a true and just and Catholic Council, preserving, as you have done, the example of ancient tradition, and by being mindful of ecclesiastical discipline, you have truly strengthened the vigour of our religion, no less now in consulting US than before passing sentence. For you decided that it was PROPER to REFER to OUR JUDGEMENT, knowing what is DUE to the APOSTOLIC SEE, since all we who are set in THIS place, desire to follow the Apostle from whom the very episcopate and whole authority of his name is derived. Following in his steps, we know how to condemn the evil and to approve the good. So also, you have by your sacerdotal office preserved the customs of the Fathers, and have not spurned that which they decreed by a divine and not human sentence, that whatsoever is done, even though it be in distant provinces, should not be ENDED WITHOUT BEING BROUGHT TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIS SEE, that by its authority the whole just pronouncement should be strengthened, and that from it ALL OTHER Churches(like waters flowing from their natal source and flowing through the different regions of the world, the pure streams of one INCORRUPT HEAD), should receive what they ought to enjoin, whom they ought to wash, and whom that water, worthy of pure bodies, should avoid as defiled with uncleansable filth. I congratulate you, therefore, dearest brethren, that you have directed letters to US by our brother and fellow-bishop Julius, and that, while caring for the Churches which you rule, you also show your solicitude for the well-being of ALL, and that you ask for a DECREE that shall profit ALL the Churches of the WORLD AT ONCE.'
Pope Innocent(a rescript) to the African Bishops,Ep 181

'And the words of the VENERABLE BISHOP INNOCENT to the Council of Carthage...What MORE PLAIN AND CLEAR THAN THIS SENTENCE OF THE APOSTOLIC SEE?'
C. Julian 2:4:6,7

'To all of these letters he answered in the manner which was right and the duty of the bishop of the Apostolic See'
Ep 186

'when he answered that he consented to the letters of Pope Innocent, of blessed memory, BY WHICH ALL DOUBT ABOUT THIS MATTER WAS REMOVED.'
C. Julian 2:3:5

'Let blessed Innocent also reply, the prelate of the Roman Church, who in answering the African Episcopal Councils...Do you see what the catholic faith holds by her minister?'
Op. Imperf. 6:11

'Do you think these Fathers, viz. Irenaeus, Cyprian, Reticius, Hilary, Ambrose are to be despised because they all belong to the Western Church, and I have mentioned no Eastern Bishop among them? What are we to do, since they are Greeks and we are Latins? I think that you ought to be satisfied with that part of the world in which our Lord willed to CROWN THE CHIEF of His Apostles with glorious martyrdom. If you had been willing to hear BLESSED INNOCENT, the president of that Church, you would have long ago disengaged your perilous youth from the nets of the Pelagians. For what could that holy man answer TO the African Councils, except what from of old the APOSTOLIC SEE and the ROMAN CHURCH with all others preservingly hold?...See what you can reply to St. Innocent, who has no other view than have those into whose council I have introduced you; with these he sits also, though after them in time, BEFORE THEM IN RANK...answer him, OR RATHER answer our Lord himself, whose words he alleges...What will you say? what can you answer? for if you should call blessed Innocent a Manichean, surely you will not dare to say it of Christ?'
C. Julian 1:4:13

"My brethren, be of one mind with me. Wheresoever you find such men do not hide them, have no peverse pity. Refute those who contradict, and bring to us those who resist. For already two Councils have SENT TO THE APOSTOLIC SEE concerning this matter, and RESCRIPTS have COME FROM THENCE. THE CASE IS CONCLUDED; would that error would soon cease also'
Serm 131:10

'The student tracing the history of the times, particularly the ARIAN(my emph), Donatist, Pelagian and Christological controversies, CANNOT(my emph) to be impressed by the skill and persistence with which the Holy See was continually advancing and consolidating its claims. Since its occupant was accepted as the successor of St. Peter, the prince of the apostles, it was easy to draw the inference that the unique authority which Rome in fact enjoyed, and which the popes saw concentrated in their persons and their office, was no more than the fufillment of the divine plan'
JND Kelly Early Christian Doctrines pg 417

'...is CHIEFLY known for his vigorous support of Nicene orthodoxy and of its eastern champions, Athanasius of Alexandria(d. 373) and Marcellus of Ancyra (d. 376)...'
JND Kelly, Oxford Dictionary of the Popes, pg 29

James White :
'it was not Rome that defended the Nicene faith in the years of Arian ascendancy that followed Nicea, it was Alexandria and the great Athanasius'

'...is CHIEFLY known for his vigorous support of Nicene orthodoxy and of its eastern champions, Athanasius of Alexandria(d. 373) and Marcellus of Ancyra (d. 376)...'
Oxford Dictionary of the Popes, pg 29

'The Roman primacy of doctrine and jurisdiction was already in the field.'
The Church and the Papacy, pg 217

'Supposing, as you assert, that there was some charge against them [Athanasius & Marcellus], the case ought not to have been conducted thus, but according to ecclesiastical canon. You should have written to us all, so that justice might be determined by all. For the sufferers were bishops, and prominent churches, which the apostles themselves had governed. And why were we not written to especially about the church of the Alexandrians? Are you ignorant that the custom was first to write to us, and then for justice to be determined from here?'
St. Athanasius, Apologia 35

'For, if he had wished, he could not very well have asserted in a more equivocal fashion a primacy of jurisdiction for his see, which now emerges for the first time into the daylight of history.'
The Church and the Papacy, pg 213

'It is clear from his letter(c. 35) that the Pope considered that after the Roman council had given its verdict, further discussion of the subject would be superfluous'
ibid, note 6, pg 213

'For if "where two or three are gathered together in His name," He has said that "there He is in the midst of them," must He not have been much more particularly present with 520 priests, who preferred the spread of knowledge concerning Him to their country and their ease? Of whom YOU WERE CHIEF, as the HEAD to the MEMBERS, showing your goodwill...' Chalcedon to Pope Leo, 'Repletum est Gaudio', Denzinger 149

'I take refuge, therefore, with you the defender of religion and abhorrer of such factions...I beseech you not to be prejudiced against me by their insidious designs about me, but to pronounce the sentence which shall seem to YOU right upon the faith...'
From Eutchyes to Leo, Ep 21

'We exhort you, honourable brother, that you obediently listen to what has been written by the blessed Pope of the city of Rome, since blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, offers the truth of faith to those who seek. For we, in our zeal for peace and faith, cannot decide questions of faith APART from the CONSENT of the Bishop of Rome.'
From Peter Chrysologus to Leo, Ep 25

'The stage was being set for an ecclesiastical struggle on a titanic scale, in which questions of far greater importance than the prerogatives of bishops, or of the precedence of sees were at stake. Amid scenes of equivocation, betrayal and tragedy, ONE FIGURE stood out like a BEACON light amongst the wreckage of the storm. We shall now see how in confusion of thought resulting from the cross-currents of imperial and ecclesiastical politics LEO, AND HE ALONE, offered to a distracted church security, order, and peace, in the recognition of the doctrinal magisterium of the ROMAN SEE.'
Life and Times of St. Leo the Great, T. Jalland, pg 253

'When I began to appeal to the throne of the Apostolic See of Peter the Prince of the Apostles, and to the whole sacred synod which is obedient to your Holiness,at once a crowd of soldiers surrounded me and barred the way when I wished to take refuge at the holy altar...Therefore I beseech Your Holiness not to permit these things to be treated with indifference...but to rise up first on behalf of the cause of our orthodox faith, now destroyed by unlawful acts...further to issue an authoritative instruction...so that a like faith may everywhere be preached, by the assembly of a united synod of fathers, both eastern and western. Thus the laws of the fathers may prevail and all that has been done amiss be rendered null and void: bring healing to this ghastly wound.'
Flavian to Leo, Jalland's St. Leo, pg 243

'...hasten to your apostolic see in order to receive from you a cure for the wounds of the church. For every reason it is fitting for you to hold the FIRST place, inasmuch as your see is adorned with many privileges...I have been condemned without trial. But I await the sentence of YOUR apostolic see. I beseech and implore your holiness to succour me in my appeal to your fair and righteous tribunal. Bid me hasten to you, and prove to you that my teaching follows the footsteps of the apostles.'
Theoderet, Ep 113

'The Apostolic Throne has been wont from the beginning to defend those who are suffering injustice...I entreat your Blessedness give me back the dignity of my episcopate and communion with yourself, by letters from you to my lowliness bestowing on me my rank and communion.'

'Blessed Peter preserving in the strength of the Rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church, which he undertook...And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications, it is of his work and merits whos power lives and whose authority prevails in his See...to him whom they know to be not only the patron of this See, but also primate of all bishops. When therefore...beleive that he is speaking whose representative we are'
Leo, Sermon 3:3-4

'Now, the Lord desired that the dispensing of this gift should be shared as a task by all the Apostles, but in such a way that He put the principal charge on the most blessed Peter, the highest of all the Apostles. He wanted his gifts to flow into the entire body from Peter himself, as it were from the head. Thus a man who had dared to separate himself from the solidity of Peter would realize that he no longer shared in the divine mystery.'
Leo, Ep 10

'That they were inviolably devoted to the faith of the fathers of Nicea and Constantinople, and to the decrees of the first synod of Ephesus, and that they were also FULLY CONVINCED of the ORTHODOXY of the MOST HOLY FATHER and ARCHBISHOP LEO. But that which in his letter appeared to them no quite clear, and liable to be misunderstood, the papal legates had explained quite satisfactorily when they were all assembled with Anatolius, and had anathematized every one who separated the manhood of our Lord from His Godhead, and did not confess that the divine and the human attributes existed in him unmingled and unchanged and undivided. On this they had in a body signed Leo's letter and had agreed with them.'
Hefele, History_of_the_Councils_of_the_Church V3, pg 331

'We all hold fast by the faith of the 318 fathers of Nicea and of the 150 of Constantinople and agree with the decrees of the first Synod of Ephesus. When the letter of Leo was read to us, we gave out assent to the greatest parts of its contents. But some parts of it seemed to us to express a certain seperation of the divine and human in Christ, and we therefore hesitated to accept them. We learnt, however, from the Roman legates, that neither do they admit any such separation, but confess one and the same Lord and Son of God. We have therefore assented, and have subscribed Leo's letter.'
Hefele, History_of_the_Councils_of_the_Church V3, pg 331-332

'You are set as an interpreter to ALL of the voice of blessed Peter, and to all you impart the blessings of that faith...'
Chalcedon to Leo Ep 98

'Besides all this he extended his fury even against him who had been charged with the custody of the vine by the Saviour, WE REFER TO YOUR HOLINESS...'
Chalcedon to Leo Ep 98

'you have often extended your apostolic radiance of yours even to the Church of Constantinople'
Chalcedon to Leo Ep 98

'...knowing that every success of the children rebounds to the parents. We therefore beg you to honour our decision by your assent, and as WE have yielded agreement to the HEAD in noble things, so may the HEAD also fufill what is fitting for the children'
Chalcedon to Leo Ep 98

'As for those things which the universal council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favour of the church of Constantinople,let your holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so the whole force and confirmation of the acts was RESERVED for the authority of your blessedness. Therefore let your holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness.'
Anatolius(Bishop of Constantinople) to Pope Leo, Ep 132

'I have willingly complied, therefore, with what the most clement emperor thought necessary by sending a letter(Ep 114) to all brothers who were present at the Council of Chalcedon to show thereby that the decisions taken by our holy brothers concerning the tenets of the faith were pleasing to me. My doing so was naturally on account of those who want the decisions of the council to appear weak and dubious, as an occasion for cloaking their own perfidy, on the grounds that the decisions were not ratified by assenting opinion of mine; whereas...I did dispatch a letter'
Leo, Ep 117

'God has given the Synod a champion against every error, in the person of the Roman bishop,who, like the fiery Peter, wishes to lead every one to God.'
Hefele, History_of_the_Councils_of_the_Church V3, pg 118

'Besides all this he extended his fury even against him who had been charged with the custody of the vine by the Saviour, WE REFER TO YOUR HOLINESS..you have often extended your apostolic radiance of yours even to the Church of Constantinople...knowing that every success of the children rebounds to the parents. We therefore beg you to honour our decision by your assent, and as WE have yeilded agreement to the HEAD in noble things, so may the HEAD also fufill what is fitting for the children'
Chalcedon to Leo, Ep 98

'The student tracing the history of the times, particularly the ARIAN, Donatist, PELAGIAN and CHRISTOLOGICAL controversies, CANNOT to be impressed by the skill and persistence with which the Holy See was continually advancing and consolidating its claims. Since its occupant was accepted as the successor of St. Peter, the prince of the apostles, it was easy to draw the inference that the unique authority which Rome in fact enjoyed, and which the popes saw concentrated in their persons and their office, was no more than the fufillment of the divine plan'
JND Kelly Early Christian Doctrines pg 417